Ed Benedict design at SPS
Kyle Dion from New Line Skateparks graciously provided the renderings from tonight’s Ed Benedict presentation for us to share. I posted them at Skaters for Portland Skateparks
The dozen or so guys that showed up for the meeting seemed pleased with the design.
You can comment on the plaza design on the Portland Parks website through 11/30/07. They will pass those comments on to NewLine Skateparks.
Dan Garland has been awarded the Percent for Art commission. He showed his ideas. We’ll try to get some images from him.
The other pics do more for getting an overall feel, but they are kind of small. I’m surprised at all the tranny. A lot of interesting features (even for me!) and a cool vibe for sure. I hope those dark stretches are not asphault! Looks fun and unlike anything we have so far. Stoked.
But where is the dinosaur?
I linked to 1024 pixel wide images of the two big ones at skateportland.org. Click on the images. That hothead street plaza guy from the last meeting was wearing a t-shirt that said keep your bowl out of my plaza. How much of that street plaza money are you responsible for raising Joe?
He was also talking about the dinosaur. He sees it as a visual metaphor of Dreamland
Asides from the boundaries, the skatepark looks like a normal city park.
Those “potato chip” transitions at the entrance look really cool.
The more I study the drawings the more I like this park. There are a lot of subtle features that look like they will be fun to try something on. Looking at this park makes me want to grab my board and go out and skate! (too bad it’s raining right now) 🙁
Call Mark Scott @Dreamland skateparks ! He will build you something worth skating . This plaza is an embarrasing waste of money for oregon .
can’t the majority of skateboarders have JUST ONE?
Please explain why it is a waste of money?
only a dozen guys showed up to the meeting? aren’t there supposedly 20,000 skaters in PDX?
the bank to bank and ledges over the grass gaps look fun, it needs some more manual pad obstacles. is it sloped downhill?
where’s the 10 stair? 😉
Its really hard to get a feel from the above image but I’m getting super excited about this one especially if there is magically money for the tight curvy entry tranny feature… Cheers to SportlandS, Newline and the 12 dudes who showed up. Wish I could have been there.
The hothead t-shirt plaza guy sounds like he’s on the verge of being a paranoid schizophrenic. Nobody suggested building bowls in this park. In fact, Miller from SPS suggested forgoing tranny altogether, albeit in favor of more flow.
I feel sorry for the angry little guy. I think he needs a hug.
This park looks fun (mostly in the other pics) – that’s odd that they designed more than they have a budget for.. Maybe we can phase one and two it.
it would be good to see a shaded version of the plan to see exactly what isn’t budgeted.
Their logo makes me thing of Nintendo,
curbs are vert, too
(emo hug emoticon here)
On the Newline logo thing, possibly the folks from Newline are fans of Godel-Escher-Bach. With respect to the design, the Newline folks are doing an excellent job given the budget/design constraints. It would be cool to see a Dreamland/Newline design/build park as one of our future parks. Skate, build, skate, repeat….
Shoey’s waste of money comment is the flip side of the guy who thinks there should be no transition skating at all in the park.
I can’t wait to shred the hell out of this street plaza on my carving board! When is SPS going to recognize the need for a slalom park too so that they can represent the needs of ALL the skaters. The casual longboarding college students are getting dissed!
I
Reminds me of mini-golf. A couple of banks, some “bumpers”, a water hazard, and a little bridge. “Hey, I got a hole in one!!”
It does look like it’ll be fun to skate though.
Do people still rollerblade? Or is it as dead as vert skating? … joke….
I was unable to attend last night. I attended the first meeting wherein I reminded everyone of the commissioner’s 70/30 directive and encouraged New Line to meet it in a creative way. I think New Line did a really nice job of doing just that. The mini ramp does not intrude on the plaza aesthetically, functionally, or otherwise.
I mentioned earlier in another thread my surprise that the concept is 18,000 square feet with a New Line estimated price tag of $500-600,000. I met with Kyle yesterday before the meeting. Here is what he conveyed.
He expressed to Parks the limitations of an 8-10,000 sf plaza. He asked if they wanted him to design for the site (i.e. the 18,000 sf) or design for the budget.
Remarkably (to me), Rod and Taj directed Kyle to design for the site, i.e. disregard the budget constraints. No other skatepark project in Portland has been provided that opportunity.
One can generate all kinds of conspiracy theories. For example, phasing the project would be a clever way to get around the 70/30 directive. However I prefer to be more optimistic and see it as an important progression for the skateboard cause. The Parks bureau is directing its client to design the skatepark that makes the most sense for skaters, not for bean counters. That’s amazing and exciting.
I’m interested in where dollars $300,001 and beyond would come from and when. My optimism has to be balanced with the reality that the Parks bureau has never earmarked a dollar from its own budget for skatepark development, they’ve only spent other people’s dollars. Those are dollars from discretionary sources directed from city council, the city’s elected leaders. Parks didn’t lobby for those dollars, citizens did because Parks would not.
Just the facts…
So if we can’t afford the design some of us are drooling over, where are the plans for what we can afford?
That’s interesting to know. I can’t believe all that mostly flat cement is going to cost that much.
Well there are travel expenses and they do have to house and feed their out-of-state crew.
The idea of a New Line collaboration with an Oregon company is looking better and better.
Tom, I find it funny you’re enforcing the directive so hard rather than letting them ‘work they’re magic’ like you stress with DL.
In the end you’re just taking away from the end user experience with your efforts. Every knows building tranny costs more. You could corral ‘them’ all there and have the rest of the parks to yourself. Everyone wins.
I am neither whining nor contributing
Carl, your full of poop. You weren’t there to see how he “enforced” the directive. he actually wanted to give more and more latitude. And believe it or not, Dreamland wasn’t allowed an entirely free reign to “work their magic” at Pier Park, even discounting the street area. People are quick to jump on SPS’s back for things they assume they are guilty of but aren’t if you look at the facts and not hearsay.
you’ve already got what, 5 bowls in the last year with 12 more on the way?
I’m not a street skater but I think this park looks super fun. I’d love to see New line work with Dreamland for the next one.
I’m surprised not more than 12 people showed up at the meeting…there’s a ton of street skaters out there.
The directive is specifically mentioned twice in Tom’s response.
I’m only stating the fact that Skaters for Portland Sportsparks is driving the cost of the skatepark up more than anyone by requiring tranny; and by even requiring tranny, go from being a skateboarding advocacy group to a private interest transition-niche sportsboarding group.
Skateboarders have to fight you for one stinkin plaza that you’ve been telling us will be our place in the 19 park plan .. that’s crazy.. and you can’t really say that ‘oh we raised the money’ when the money was given based on numbers that include the rest of us.
I don’t contribute anything and I’m not from Portland, so grain of salt here. I just want a Newline plaza where nobody is taking any ‘runs’.
“I just want a Newline plaza where nobody is taking any
“the money was given based on numbers that include the rest of us.”
There is plenty of room in this park for “the rest” of you. Christ, there must be at least ten places each with room enough for a dozen of you to stand around with your thumbs up your butts while one guy repeatedly misses his trick and has a foul-mouthed temper tantrum about it. Hell, that’s what street skating is all about. You guys should be as happy as pigs in shit over this design.
From the street perspective, that is an awesome looking park, if you want the street people to shut up, let this one get built, even if the funding was organized by bowl-shredders.
$ 33 a foot seems like alot of money for flat concrete ? I’m sorry but I wish we would hire our local park builders , our friends , the people we skate with everyday . PTR , AIRSPEED , DREAMLAND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SKATE FOREVER AND RIDE ON !
Carl, I appreciate your frustration with the lack of high quality street terrain in Portland-area skateparks. Fact: street is missing from the local skatepark experience.
I’m sorry that your frustration colors your view of the facts. You’re missing a lot of facts. When I have time, perhaps over the weekend, I can lay it out in substantial detail if the conversation actually merits it.
The conspiracy theory is creative, but empty. The cost estimate of $500-600,000 for the footprint unveiled last night comes from New Line. Like everybody else, I anticipated a design consistent with the budget as articulated in the RFP: $300,000. I think it’s great there is a 18,000 sf plaza design. The question I pose is how does it get paid for?
For years internet chatter has speculated that plaza is cheaper than tranny. This is enduring mythology. When somebody can put hard project numbers to that theory, please post it here.
My experience and conversations with the people who actually do this work (and not just gossip about it) suggests otherwise. It is a mistake to assume the basis of the analysis is flatwall versus tranny. That distinction is really low on the totem pole of factors that establishes cost.
By far, the largest expense in any skatepark is labor. The type of terrain has no bearing on it. Just as an aside (because it’s pretty interesting), as a practical matter some teams are more cost-effective on labor than others. Dreamland is the best example. Time and again Dreamland has donated its labor in the name of making a project as good as they think it can be.
At Pier, Dreamland actually lost money. I sent Dreamland a charitable contribution receipt for more than $30,000 for their tax purposes. That is, once Dreamland added up all of its design and construction expenses they spent more than they got from SPS and the City.
Others in the industry actually get annoyed with Dreamland because Dreamland’s approach drives down the market value of skateparks. Said another way, there is an industry-wide interest in charging as much as possible for everything. It’s no different than Venezuela and Saudi Arabia colluding on the price of the oil barrel. When Dreamland donates its services, it creates a market dynamic where Town X gets a skatepark of X square feet for X price. The next town over wants the same deal obviously. If Dreamland donates or undervalues its labor, it keeps the market price artificially low.
The next largest expense is materials. Tranny-centric parks (like Dreamland’s) have almost always been one-dimensional in materials: concrete. Plazas, of course, have a range of materials. That diversity adds cost. Not just in buying a little bit of granite or whatever, but the labor costs of tracking that stuff down.
The next largest expense is bureaucracy. That’s a fixed cost unrelated to terrain type.
My rationale for reminding folks of the 70/30 split is this. (Caution: Carl, you and others won’t like it, but let’s just agree to disagree.) Diversifying a plaza with a little bit of unobtrusive tranny helps to round out the skatepark, making it more accessible to a wider range of would-be users, and attracting a prescence of older skaters who help to self-police.
The last point about age/self-policing is anecdotal but my experience corroborates this. Everytime I skate Glenhaven with Mark Conahan, for instance, he walks the site to pick up trash. Mark, the jurassic skater, is wise enough in his old age to do his part (and more) to keep the skatepark a good neighbor. Without the tranny, Mark would never set foot on Glenhaven.
19 Parks. Nobody is fighting me or anybody else for terrain. Show up and be heard. I’ve never advocated against a plaza as a form of skatepark terrain. I think you get all this; you’re just frustated you haven’t seen your preferred type of terrain blossom in your local skatepark scene. I get that.
If it’s any consolation, Taj Hanson, a Portland-area street skater is really the architect of the Ed Benedict concept. When he presented his plaza proposal for Ed Benedict he too mistakenly jumped on the “SPS hates street” bandwagon without any understanding of what SPS has done. Taj now oversees project development as a paid employee of Parks. You should go develop plaza-centric conspiracy with your man on the inside. (I’m being flip, obviously.)
The more I look at this design the better it seems. I don’t think I’ve ever seen tranny and street features integrated quite so well as they are in this design. It also seems to offer a lot of functionality to beginner and intermediate kids just starting out. And it’s a cool open space that adds to the overall ambience and utility of the park.
I think the key thing is to maintain the overall size of this design. It’s the spaciousness that makes it work.
These guys at newline are brilliant. I hope that at least their design expertise gets utilized in any additional street oriented parks that are built in Portland.
And Shoey, you ignorant, loud-mouthed, chauvinistic dickwad, why don’t you just STFU!
Hey easy with the language you sausage polisher. Theres kids on here . Everybody should voice their opinion . I’m sorry if you disagree that ordering a skatepark company from another country seems kinda retarded when theres three overqualified park builders right here .I think functional plazas are an o.k. addition . And yeah . I think oregon skate park companies can offer the most creativness for the money . Its their backyard . Out of state contractors are usually at least 25% more expensive to cover their overhead . Local contractors usually have a history with their suppliers and are generally more efficient at utilzing the local recources . Since the oregon park buiders will be more efficient and have less overhead it rolls over into more park for the money .
Creativity is not a function of money, moron. And it sure isn’t just another bowl.
FYI there is a provision in Oregon law that allows a public buyer (like the City of Portland) to add a preference for Oregon-based companies. I’ve never heard of a municipality actually employing it, but it’s there.
It’s true creativity does not automatically establish a cost premium per se. However, in the skatepark context when you define creativity by adding multiple materials, textures, etc. a cost premium is established. But how that premium is assigned is up to the contract parties.
At Pier Dreamland absorbed the cost of the tiles and the granite, for instance. The tiles were a significant premium because of the laborious installation process. We insisted on tiles. Dreamland agreed to absorb that cost for the fixed price amount (which they probably wouldn’t do again; there’s a financial reason for Airspeed’s stamped concrete “tiles.” That’s an example of Oregon contractor creativity.)
Other companies take a more traditional route. If you want cheese on your hamburger you pay an extra 50 cents, so to speak. Shoey is right; with New Line Portland is paying to fly Kyle down here, put him up in a hotel, etc. If it were Dreamland, you’d likely have Sage driving across town on his own dime.
Personally, I’m glad New Line got the job. Nobody is even close to matching their quality on plaza design. If it means we have to cover Kyle’s travel expenses so be it.
“Nobody is even close to matching their quality on plaza design.”
🙂
Pound Sand for hiring out of state, and pound more sand if you tell me Dreamland loses money when they take on some of these projects. Driving down prices is horse hsit to, they keep it real, but no one is going hungry on that CREW. They are not greedy by no means, I have to say they are some of the most generous people I have ever had the pleasure of meeting.
i thought that the granite was donated by castalado stone out of walla walla…
I’m not really part of this controversy as I live in Vancouver BC, where we have the Downtown Plaza you can see on New Line’s site.
And honestly, I’m not that stoked on it. I say this as a dude who started skating late, and doesn’t like the amount of attitude at the Plaza.
As a dude who’s pretty new to skating, but skates mostly tranny, it sucks to go there and get dirty looks from dudes because you want to skate, even if you don’t care what kind of terrain it is.
But the existing plaza in Vancouver is pretty sweet, so be stoked on that dudes.
The Portland jobs all require prevailing wage for employees. Right now prevailing wage for skatepark construction is around $36/hour. No, the Dreamland crew is not going hungry on $36/hour. The company, however (a legal entity distinct from its employees), can lose money on jobs. And has.
but they had to buy all that granite, right?
I checked out NLS site, Canadians. Hell, it’s not just out of state, we’re hiring OUT OF COUNTRY. That’s a bunch of PHCUKING NI#$er hsit. I do like there simple designs, and looks like some of the porjects I viewed were unique.
IS THERE A PROBLEM KEEPING IT MADE IN OREGON, BY OREGON FOR OREGON AND MORE???
I went back to the NLS site and was surprised to see White City, out of Medford already has a NLS built. It looks lame, one dimentional one hit wonder. I guess I need to know when the next meeting is for Ed Benedict. Please if you don’t mind, Guys I will be there for input and hope we don’t get anything like White City. It’s easy to lay out flat work, I see mexicans doing it all day in driveways…
We’ve got 19 parks in the system. Having them all built by essentially the same group of people would be very boring.
I’d like to see the vast majority of it go local companies, but I’d also like to see some variety.
“It
I think SnA should feature a DIY injury guide. Not everyone can afford the hospital. It would probably draw a lot of criticism, but I think it’s a necessary thing.
Liability could be huge. I’d recommend reading a good book on first aid.
“I think SnA should feature a DIY injury guide.”
Let’s see, you don’t think people should skate in the street because they would violate traffic laws and get hurt. You don’t think they can skate this park without getting injured.
Just where DO you old ladies rock your wheelchairs anyway?
The problem with the idea that only Oregon companies should get the work is that the Oregon companies have no track record of delivering plazas. As soon as the 70/30 direction came from the commissioner we all knew New Line would win the bid. Oregon companies have had ample opportunity to demonstrate a willingness and ability to do street consistent with the style du jour, i.e. plaza. They’ve never done it. They’ve consistently and openly prioritized tranny and hybridized “street” sections with lots of tranny. That’s the source of the backlash on these threads from the plaza crowd and so many of Conahan’s cartoons. New Line deserves this job.
In answer to DickCancer,
I believe that
As far as somebody deserving this job . THATS BULLSHIT ! Building per plan is building per plan . Hiring this guy for design is one thing . But hiring them to build a park in portland is down right disrespect to the oregon builders.Period!!!!!!!!!!!!! Theres no in between . Our local park builders are the best . Nobody can match thier quality for the price . The mark up for travel cost lodging etc……………. Its money awash .If the oregon crews prefer tranny ????? Well . Welcome to oregon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tom . Its great watching you lick new lines balls after busting Geths balls on wanting to put something truely memorable in portland . Theres flat ground and street parks everywhere . All the kids who are coming up in the building world in oregon .Just took the shaft . Approved by tom miller . Advocate for canada skateparks. No track record !!! Bull shit !!!! DIY !!!! The program is so fucking corpratized its bullshit !!!!!!!!!! 25-40% for overhead ,perdium ,etc. It all means less park . Justify it with whatever sales pitch you want . I hear it from subs all day . BULLSHIT IS BULLSHIT !!!!!!!!!!!! Quit selling OREGON !!!!!!!!!!!
“As far as somebody deserving this job . THATS BULLSHIT !”
Boy, I’ll say. And that includes you and your oh so righteous friends.
It’s not like any of you drive foreign cars or trucks or anything. Oh… You say you do?
Then STFU up about some Canadians building a nice park for us!!!!!